Romantic Question Time

[aimeekitty]

TODAY'S TEA: teaforte.com's Crimson Nectar

ROMANTIC QUESTION TIME!

As most of you know, I'm a sucker for the tortured heros and the tragic romances. In particular, I like stories like Beauty and the Beast, The Phantom of the Opera, and The Count of Monte Cristo, etc. (P.S. as Batchix brings up, Batman is a good example of a similar type, too!)
I've been thinking about what appeals and what works about these stories for me.

1 - Do you feel disappointed when the Beast changes into a Prince? ( doesn't need to be the Disney version here, btw. Any version.)

2 - If the Beast never changed to a Prince, (and you were "stuck with" the Beast forever) would you really truly be ok with that?

3 - If the Phantom of the Opera hadn't been homicidal, and you hadn't kinda-sorta been in love with Raoul, could you really truly get past his facial deformation?

4 - Could you live with the Phantom, knowing that in some ways you'd be isolating yourself (since the Phantom can't really live completely as a normal person.)

5 - It is kind of the unrealistic fantasy of the tortured hero that attracts, isn't it? If someone in real life had the revenge fantasies and personality problems of say, The Phantom or the Count of Monte Cristo, most sane women wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. (sidenote: part of the appeal of Doctor Who, "I'm a Time Lord, so I have that whole Highlander problem AND I destroyed my home planet, but Rose, you made me better!") ..... In a fiction, it's oh so romantic, isn't it? I'm guessing part of it is the "women wanting their love to be strong enough to heal" sort of thing. (and then are we getting into the "Utena wants to be a prince" territory?) ( Also probably part of why people like Twilight. ) .... or is it more of the "wow, he has a sexy brain" thing? Could you truly live with a cranky angsty fellow and still be happy?

6 - What do you think? What is the specific appeal of the heros in these and similar stories for you? Guys, you can answer, too, if you want to play along. :)

Comments

[batchix.livejournal.com]

- Not really? But that's mostly because the Prince is seriously hot. I always think of D and I as beauty and the beast because D's got such a cranky personality. XD

- I'm very attracted to giant robots, and when I was a little girl I blushed about mutant turtles... I'd say I could. XD

- Masks are hot. But I don't know if a guy would me okay with a girl being like "OMG PUT THE MASK ON! UNF UNF UNF!

- So long as the guy wasn't beating me or emotionally abusive, then I think I'd be okay. I'm a pretty solitary person to begin with.

- Having married the moody bishonen, I can tell you that it's probably not a good idea. You can't fix everything. I know that I make D happy, but his natural disposition is not a happy one and I've just had to learn to live with it. He's moody, prone to fits rage at the horrible and frustrating things in the world(not at me), and I love him more than anything else. We've been together for 10 years and I'm happy as a clam. However, bringing kids into the equation makes me worried. He doesn't want any... but accidents happen, you know?

- I don't know what it is that makes the tortured hero appealing. For D and I it was more that at the time we met we had both been through the ringer and we found kindred spirits in each other. We really do fit together like puzzle pieces. But no one is really that flat a character, D's got a great sense of humor and can make me laugh till my sides ache. Some of the characters I'm attracted to are the guys that are just incredibly stupid... like Justice League's Flash. He's adorable! He's an idiot, but he has a good heart. And I think... in the end that's what I'm really attracted to, a beautiful heart. The phantom, the beast, all these tragic guys at the core usually do have that. A beautiful heart that loves unconditionally when it does love.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

yeah, I think that's interesting to consider, what a "real life" cranky bishonen is, and whether that is an acceptable thing. I love your description!
and you're right of course, that it's the positive characteristics that make the angst worth it in "real life".

but in fiction, the angst is attractive itself, also...? but in real life, it's not is it? or what do you think?

[binsybaby.livejournal.com]

I think most people were disappointed in Beast's transformation because nobody liked the Prince's design. He didn't have the character that Beast did, and he wasn't all that good looking, and he seemed like some random new character all together.

If the movie was made today, I'm sure the transformation would have had more time to sink in and be more appealing.
It would be easier for the audience to connect with Beast's new form if they retained the voice, too. If I were directing it, I would have picked a voice actor who could do both parts convincingly.
He could have at least had brown hair, too!

But yeah, Belle couldn't have stayed with Beast that way forever.
I just can't imagine making out with beast would be all that... good. Hahah
(SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT SORT OF THING, THOUGH)

[yume-ninja.livejournal.com]

that art seriously made my day.

[ajmeow.livejournal.com]

All I remember is that people kinda giggled when the prince showed up cause uh... he wasn't all that good looking at first glance. You get over it but I guess we were expecting something more classically good looking... not Fabio? ^^;

I'm the last person you should ask. Soooo not a romantic. I never really thought the phantom was anything but pretty psychotic... =D Although I did like Takarazuka's version a lot better.

Oh and here in case you haven't seen it:
http://paulcornell2.livejournal.com/36419.html

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

but you love Der Tod, don't you? kinda a similar thing. (oops, I kissed you, you're dead!)

[sulcatas.livejournal.com]

Have you read The Bloody Chamber by Angela Carter, spec. The Tiger's Bride story? I kinda don't want to link to it cuz of spoilers, it's a classic and deals w/ the same Beauty and the Beast questions you are asking. In a 70s feminist (the good sort) proto-intertextual kind of way. Check it out!~

oh, and to answer one of your questions, I always laughed when that beam of light came out of beast/prince's toe.

[claidissa.livejournal.com]

1. Not really. A little. That guy looked kind of prissy.

2. Probably not. That'd be a little awkward in the bedroom.

3. Absolutely!

4. Probably not. Well, maybe. I'd have to love him a lot. As in, a lot more than Christine was (although that might just come with not being sorta-in-love with Raoul).

5. For the Phantom it's not really a "I CAN FIX HIM" sort of attraction, more of a "god damn he has a sexy brain" kind of thing. Although I can completely understand that sort of "my love can heal you" mentality.

6. I think it really depends on the character. With the Doctor it's not the tragic part that is attractive, it's just what comes along with it. It's baggage you have to accept if you want to be with him. With the Phantom it's a completely different story, because his tragedy is what consumed his life and he has nothing else, really, aside from Christine and his music. If you're deciding to be with the Phantom, you have to weigh the odds and ask yourself if you can really be with someone like that, whereas with the Doctor it's something that affects him, but not what drives him.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

I think definitely the "omg sexy brain" thing is a big part of it. I'm always going for the smart guys. But in fiction, for me, it's always the smart guy + some sort of angst. (which is not what I like IRL.)

with the Doctor, for you, does the tragedy make him more attractive? or do you just consider it a required price of admission? :>

So you're ok with facial deformation... what if the Beast wasnt the Disney Beast, but just some kind-of fur covered man-thing with big teeth and claws? still not ok?

[dave-iii.livejournal.com]

Speaking thematically (as opposed to hormonally, *grin*):

1: No, because it means he's finally realized that he'd been behaving like a bad person (a "Beast", so to speak) and is now trying to behave like a human-- something he HAD been all along, appearances to the contrary. I don't want to be quoted as saying "Conformity=Teh Good" but there's some basic rules of what makes "Teh Good" and if you don't follow them, then you can't be too surprised when people treat you a particular way.

2&3: Good is as Good does, it's the heart that really matters. Dig up episodes of the "Beauty and the Beast" series from the 80's (Sweet Mother McCree, was there a lot of fan fiction for that one) and you'll find a guy who was permanently stuck with the Beast visage but the Prince's heart.

If he looked like that, no worries; If he ACTED like that, big worries.

4: If the Phantom really loved you, he wouldn't force isolation on you... but either way, isolation works far a lot of people, so there's no real telling one way or the other unless one tried.

5: Guh. (Insert sour face here.) The tortured hero is only appealing (to me) if they overcome their issues and triumph in spite of their personal problems. Otherwise they just come off as whiny losers who win because that's how the writers wrote it. Functionally, inner demons work exactly like outer trials and tribulations in this respect-- if they can't beat the Dragon, they can't rescue the Damsel. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if the Dragon is a literal dragon or if it's a school yard bully, a symptom of some mental disease (A Beautiful Mind), memories of a long dead abusive parent, or a naysayer telling the hero they can't do X (climb a mountain, build a rocket, eat a cherry pie, whatever). "Damsel" is a blanket term as well, referring to the goal the Hero is working towards; personal salvation, a dream, a people, etc.

Besides, for me the real hero of the piece is not the Beast, but the Beauty-- she's the one who goes through trials and tribulations-- the Beast only made the effort to change because of her. Without her, he'd have had no reason to. He's not the hero so much as he is both the Dragon AND the Damsel.

***
I dunno, would B and the B work if the genders were reversed? If the Beast was a woman with a horrible appearance and a demeanor to match, and Beauty (Let's call him "Handsome" to avoid raised eyebrows), if Handsome was a guy sucked into the situation without his control or consent? Would Princess Beast be as appealing as a romantic character this way? ....Come to think of it, does such a story exist?

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the indepth discussion! :)

1 - I think in many ways the transformation works in it's allegorical form, ie, that he's been transformed by her love and now is the human (both in character and form) that he's meant to be. however, I think many young girls fall in love with the character, complete with the physical form and then, since they aren't thinking about the symbolism, they're like "hey, who's this new guy?, I liked my man-beast!"
My question is kindof, lets assume, no matter what, that the Beast's character improves and he becomes a better "person". Is it then nessesary for him to change his physical form ALSO.

2-3 - yup! I watched that series! A bit cheesy, but fun. Also Ron Pearlman = yay!

4. My thought is that in this fantasy world, the Phantom has improved his attitude somewhat, but he still wouldnt be a fully functional member of society. So lets assume that he doesn't "force" isolation on you, but there would be some isolation anyway, simply by being around him and he would be isolated at least to some degree.

5. I know what you mean. :) Please note that none of the stories I've listed have a "whiney" hero, they're all pretty powerful figures actually, if tortured. I agree with you a lot, but I think what I'm trying to say is perhaps a bit hard to explain. I don't tend to be attracted to the typical Prince Charming (someone who has no personality problems and always slays the dragon) I tend to be more attracted to types like the Count of Monte Cristo for example. And he's rather a bit of a bastard if you look at it! Has good reason to be, but yeah. In the end, he does triumph over his own personal dragon (his psyche is definitely his dragon, not those he wants revenge over) but it's the torture before that that makes him interesting, I think. buuuut... in most of these cases, part of it is their inherent nature. Like in A Beautiful Mind, he'll never fully conquer that. The Phantom can never truly be completely normal, mentally, even if he tries really hard.

There are many stories that have an "ugly" female with a handsome male, but most often it's more of the "I got a makeover and now I'm pretty".... or the "we're just friends because you're ugly, but then I find out how awesome you are and now we're in love".... so not really quiet the B and B formula, but sort of. I do think that the "ugly beast male" works better as a archetype (sp.) as I think most women find a strong, even somewhat brutish male more attractive than most men would find a brutish female.

it is true that Beauty really is the hero in B and B... she's the one who "saves" the Beast.

[pogo101.livejournal.com]

2: All my furry gay friends say "yes. OH GOD, GOD, yes."

Duh.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

go to your room!

[bluejeans07.livejournal.com]

1. Disney version, yes because I don't see the Beast in Prince Random. Yeah we see that there's a portrait of Prince Random in the Beast's quarters and the whole thing with his eyes, but I think the design could've used more elements of the Beast in the Prince. In stories, I don't really mind, but it's different when you read a story have the images in your mind compared to a movie.

2. It would make things awkward in the bedroom so no. o_O Then again, I did have that crush on Goliath from Gargoyals... *facepalm*

3. Well... if the Phantom wasn't homicidal, yeah. I don't know the Phantom character very well because he is so homicidal that it freaks me out. xD

4. In that era? I'd probably move us out to some village or a farm or something instead of staying the city. XD

5. The thing I love about the Doctor is that even though he is angsty, he still is able to delight in things. :D I'm madly attracted to sexy brains, smart guys are HOT, and I do admit that I do love the inner angst, I think it brings a kind of maturity in a person to see more into themselves and be able to affect the world around them. The main thing is that because of the pain they feel, they WANT to change the world instead of just live in it and for me that's really admirable. I personally don't think I have a healing personality but to love is to grow together, right? I'd be interested to see where being affected by such a person would take me.

6. I think I answered this in question 5, haha!

[unmei-no-yume.livejournal.com]

First off, I did NOT like the prince at all. I thought the Beast was much handsomer, and I really mean that. Although as stated above, it would make having kids rather difficult I would think.

I definitely think that for a lot of girls whether fictional or otherwise, there is sort of a 'savior complex.' Just as some guys have a Prince Charming complex - wanting to be his princess' knight in shining armor and saving her from this or that, I think some girls want to save the guy too. Only it often tends to involve less physical saving and more emotional or intellectual. Does that make sense?

Almost always it seems that fictional female characters are the ones who pull the brooding, angsty guys away from their angst. They help them move on with their life, make them know happiness again or for the first time, maybe find peace with themselves, realize the error of their ways, etc. I think maybe that's also a possible truth for why girls like "bad boys" sometimes. Sure there's the fun aspect of being bad but also I think inside the girls think they can change their bad boy. And I think that these fictional female characters are not unlike their real world counterparts. Girls want to save the ones they love or love the ones they want to save =P It doesn't hurt that most of the time, said brooding, angsty guys are bishounen, haha. I think it doesn't tend to happen in real life as much because realistically you can't really change anyone, not entirely, and saving them requires a whole lot of change. And I think that in fiction, sometimes the hardships of loving someone like that aren't realistically portrayed.

Enter the Mary Sues. I can't tell you how many Mary Sues I've read where the girls are saving the tortured hero. And I admit I've written them as well. People turn to fiction to escape and dream, after all.

Anyway sorry for the long rambly comment. This topic is very interesting and I'm glad you brought it up. The English minor in me want to write a paper on it lol.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

You say interesting things!

Family life did tend to settle men (a little); nothing takes your mind off your own angst like having to take care of a wife and kids. Nowadays, though, with women being just as apt to run wild as men, maybe the notion of women needing to be "saved" emotionally by men will take off... do you think?

[melnay13.livejournal.com]

1) A bit, yes.
2) Erm... Well, by that point in the story, I'm already head over heels, but let's just say that there would serious wait time before anything would happen in the bedroom.
3)Those are big, honkin' story changing if's, but yes. If I were in love with him.
4)No. I'd need to be able to be with other people.
5)It's the motivation to nurture that makes it so romantic. Also, the wanting to feel needed.

[ken-redtail.livejournal.com]

I'm usually disappointed with the Beast becoming the Prince because he always becomes so less three-dimensional. I hated how Disney portrayed him too as he turns from this visually interesting character to this halfass drawn character.

There seems to always be the girl who loves the bad guy. Look at the future Mrs. Drew Peterson.

I think there's a lot of girls who think its the ultimate romance to need to be needed. Of course, fiction always glosses over the deeper emotional and mental issues of a needy guy like that.

[emilie1024.livejournal.com]

1. Because I'm a fan of the tv show Beauty and the Beast for me "the Beast" never changes and I love that. My favourite part of Disney's musical is at the end the beast comes out in full makeup.

2. Of course!

3. Definately

4. The tv show Beauty and the Beast looks at that aspect of things too by having two different worlds (above and below). Catherine proved she could live in both.

5. I do! lol. My husband is very brooding at times and I have no problem with it :)

6. I love impossible romances because despite everything they are possible. My husband and I are living proof of that.

[sakurae.livejournal.com]

I always thought it weird that people like Phantom so much especially after having read the original gothic horror novel because if he isn't the epitome of the perfect stalker, I don't know what is. Der Tod is really just as bad if I think about it too but it does depend on who's playing the role sometimes.

Never been a fan of the prince who saves you or the love a monster type of stories. I think that's why as much as I like the old school Disney stuff, I actually much prefer to watch Aladdin or Mulan over those.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

have you read Phantom by Susan Kay? it's inspired by several versions of the story, you might enjoy it, it's interesting! If you remind me, you can borrow it. just make sure you give it back or there will be beatings. :)

as to stalking, it is, isn't it? Same with Twilight.

[shipperamy.livejournal.com]

I thought the Beast was cooler as a beast, but then, I also thought everyone else in the castle was cooler as talking furniture... XD

Can you please explain what "Utena wants to be a prince" has to do with the rest of it? I love Utena, but I'm not into Phantom, and want to know more about Der Todd solely because of your comparison of him to Jareth. I want to see them have a Magic Dance-off! XD Hmm, I guess Jareth is kind of Phantom-esque...

To live with the Beast or the Phantom would require isolation, but with the Phantom it's just you and the Phantom, whereas at least Belle could hang out with the other people in the castle, and her father.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

Because Utena wants to be the one to save someone, she wants to be the Prince. (in her case she wants to save the "princess",... but it doesnt really matter what sex the person is)

Jareth definitely fits into the type.

Do you know anything about Elisabeth and Der Tod? you should tell me what you know so I can tell you more. :)

some Der Tod for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTv8vDnwCvY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laTrt0vGSK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q22JRsZKVU

keep in mind that Der Tod is death incarnate.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

I actually am a member of the minority who thinks that the Beast's Prince-form has good character design. (He's Brad Pitt in flowy Romantic 18th century clothes, what's NOT TO LIKE?)

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

I don't mind the Disney Prince when he's animated by Glen Keane. :)

but I'm more talking about the issue in general, not that particular version or design.

[deathlikescats.livejournal.com]

I have to think that it's a combo of;

- it's flattering, if creepy, to be obsessed over. Plus you get put up on a pedestal.
- Flaws in their makeup makes it OK for them to be crazy or egotistical or revenge filled or non-committal. They have a reason. They're not just pricks.
- Ladies (like I used to be) like to take on a project. They like to see their guy as someone they can nurture to their fullest potential, or nurse back to health.
- Guys who are passionate radiate sex. Whether its passion over being independent, exploring, protection of their territory or justice, they all draw people in.

I hope that isn't too random or weird, but I think that's the underlying characteristic that makes them *sigh*-able

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering, have you seen the Beauty and the Beast TV series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast_(TV_series))?

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

of course !:)

[etherealtb.livejournal.com]

1 - Yes
2 - Yes
3 - Yes (the key here his NOT being homicidal!)
4 - Maybe. I'd prefer to convince the Phantom to get a place above ground that might be just as isolated (if he still doesn't feel comfortable around prying eyes) but you know, ABOVE ground! LOL.
5 - I'd like to think I could live with an angsty fellow, but that might just be a fantasy and might want to clobber them after a month or two.
6 - The angsty guy/ Byronic hero's appeal (from Mr. Rochester to the Phantom) is their angst proves that they have emotions they are in touch with (even if they are chaneling them to the wrong way) and I think we girls just find that sexy. And we all know the lesson from Jane Eyre that a good woman can tame the angsty man! (Points to angsty man in icon tamed by a woman!)

[uglytomboy.livejournal.com]

Sexy brain definitely. But I suppose if someone is that hell bent on being maniacal or just having a mercurial personality all together I suppose a one would think 'how much more so could they love me back.' eh, I don't know if that makes any sense, it's just one extreme for the other o_o;;

[rach3.livejournal.com]

1: There is a little bit of a letdown once the transformation is complete - maybe it's a case of the journey being much more interesting than the destination...

2-4: I dunno really :P

5-6: The tortured hero who sees the True! Beauty! in poor overlooked Jane-Eyre you, and it's all sunshine and kittens ever after? Is a nice fantasy, but I couldn't deal with that much angst in real life. With a life partner, you don't want to be tiptoeing on eggshells all the time lest you set off another episode of sulking and crockery-smashing. And that pedestal is kinda wobbly and your halo never sits quite right on your head...

[lilrockinlea.livejournal.com]

1 - Yes. Plain and simple

2 - Well, if I was in that world and I didn't know what his true form was then Beast form would be all that I knew and loved and his true form would be like another person(Dr.Who reference time!:)I guess I would feel kind of like Rose in the change from the 9th to 10th Doctor("dude! you have hair! you ain't my doctor!!") but then I would come to accept and love him... and then loose him... like at Bad Wolf Bay... I am so getting sidetracked. I think my answer is basically: yes, as his Beast form would be all that I had come to know.

3 - First off, Raoul has and will always annoy me. Secondly, I was extremely upset at the 'new' films interpretation of Erik's facial disfigurement, it was practically a sun burn! ALW's disfigurement was better (but I still can't forgive him for even thinking of creating a second Phantom musical) but not how I'd always dreamed it. I have and always will love Leroux's image of him. I personally would be able to, not "get past" as I don't feel that his face could be categorized as an obstacle, but I feel that his face wouldn't matter.
Besides, I most of the fictional characters I like have rather severe disfigurements: Lord Voldemort (don't hate me!), V(for Vendetta) or is rather homicidal or 'evil': Hannibal.

4 - I would find that hard. I know that even though I may be allowed to be somewhat social (after much persuasion and angry, obsessive and homicidal rants) I would still be isolated in the sense that to be truly with Erik, I would have to cut myself off from friends, family and those would be able to support me. I'm not sure about this one.

5 - God, it would be hard! If I truly 'loved' them then maybe, but I'd have to try very hard not to go insane and strangle/walk out on him. Probably the thing that would stop me (in the Phantom's case) would be his brains, his music and voice and artistic talent and the fact that, even if he didn't know it, he would, in some way, need me.

6 - As I stated before, the most appealing thing is that this somewhat broken man needs you. Women love the idea of being needed and being able to change a man. As Billy Connolly once said (in so many words): "Women don't see a the actual thing, they see potential."

[riterandreader.livejournal.com]

well... I love B&tB too. haven't seen Phantom of the Opera all the way through yet, tho. =/

1. I wouldn't say I was disappointed... just neutral, although wierded out, yes. as beauty/belle must have been because you get so used to the beast as he his.

2. Hum... shallow of me to say, but yes.

3 & 4 -- dunno.

5.in real life? no. and it took me a while to realize this (although u do have written a leading question there, my friend! ;) lol). but yeah, I used to think that a woman's love can "heal" a guy. Actually: no. not really. it might, but that's like 1 in a million. and the guy's REALLY got to love her to chance. hence the whole "mr. darcy" complex, too, btw. in fiction it sounds lovely (moody guys seem so hot, don't they? ~ also, there's Mr. Rochester from Jane Eyre and Heathcliff from Wuthering Hieghts), but give me a funny, sweet guy in real life any time. not saying I want guys to NEVER be moody. Of course they're only human. But if u love someone, does it matter if they're moody ore not? I guess not.

6.I guess if it's Mr. Darcy - a woman's power to change a man. But more like, HOW MUCH the guy LOVES the girl TO change. That's gotta be the most romantic part. Plus, it's a truth universally acknowledged that a moody guy in a romance novel is a passionate lover, no? ;)