Romantic Question Time

[aimeekitty]

TODAY'S TEA: teaforte.com's Crimson Nectar

ROMANTIC QUESTION TIME!

As most of you know, I'm a sucker for the tortured heros and the tragic romances. In particular, I like stories like Beauty and the Beast, The Phantom of the Opera, and The Count of Monte Cristo, etc. (P.S. as Batchix brings up, Batman is a good example of a similar type, too!)
I've been thinking about what appeals and what works about these stories for me.

1 - Do you feel disappointed when the Beast changes into a Prince? ( doesn't need to be the Disney version here, btw. Any version.)

2 - If the Beast never changed to a Prince, (and you were "stuck with" the Beast forever) would you really truly be ok with that?

3 - If the Phantom of the Opera hadn't been homicidal, and you hadn't kinda-sorta been in love with Raoul, could you really truly get past his facial deformation?

4 - Could you live with the Phantom, knowing that in some ways you'd be isolating yourself (since the Phantom can't really live completely as a normal person.)

5 - It is kind of the unrealistic fantasy of the tortured hero that attracts, isn't it? If someone in real life had the revenge fantasies and personality problems of say, The Phantom or the Count of Monte Cristo, most sane women wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. (sidenote: part of the appeal of Doctor Who, "I'm a Time Lord, so I have that whole Highlander problem AND I destroyed my home planet, but Rose, you made me better!") ..... In a fiction, it's oh so romantic, isn't it? I'm guessing part of it is the "women wanting their love to be strong enough to heal" sort of thing. (and then are we getting into the "Utena wants to be a prince" territory?) ( Also probably part of why people like Twilight. ) .... or is it more of the "wow, he has a sexy brain" thing? Could you truly live with a cranky angsty fellow and still be happy?

6 - What do you think? What is the specific appeal of the heros in these and similar stories for you? Guys, you can answer, too, if you want to play along. :)

Comments

[batchix.livejournal.com]

- Not really? But that's mostly because the Prince is seriously hot. I always think of D and I as beauty and the beast because D's got such a cranky personality. XD

- I'm very attracted to giant robots, and when I was a little girl I blushed about mutant turtles... I'd say I could. XD

- Masks are hot. But I don't know if a guy would me okay with a girl being like "OMG PUT THE MASK ON! UNF UNF UNF!

- So long as the guy wasn't beating me or emotionally abusive, then I think I'd be okay. I'm a pretty solitary person to begin with.

- Having married the moody bishonen, I can tell you that it's probably not a good idea. You can't fix everything. I know that I make D happy, but his natural disposition is not a happy one and I've just had to learn to live with it. He's moody, prone to fits rage at the horrible and frustrating things in the world(not at me), and I love him more than anything else. We've been together for 10 years and I'm happy as a clam. However, bringing kids into the equation makes me worried. He doesn't want any... but accidents happen, you know?

- I don't know what it is that makes the tortured hero appealing. For D and I it was more that at the time we met we had both been through the ringer and we found kindred spirits in each other. We really do fit together like puzzle pieces. But no one is really that flat a character, D's got a great sense of humor and can make me laugh till my sides ache. Some of the characters I'm attracted to are the guys that are just incredibly stupid... like Justice League's Flash. He's adorable! He's an idiot, but he has a good heart. And I think... in the end that's what I'm really attracted to, a beautiful heart. The phantom, the beast, all these tragic guys at the core usually do have that. A beautiful heart that loves unconditionally when it does love.

[binsybaby.livejournal.com]

I think most people were disappointed in Beast's transformation because nobody liked the Prince's design. He didn't have the character that Beast did, and he wasn't all that good looking, and he seemed like some random new character all together.

If the movie was made today, I'm sure the transformation would have had more time to sink in and be more appealing.
It would be easier for the audience to connect with Beast's new form if they retained the voice, too. If I were directing it, I would have picked a voice actor who could do both parts convincingly.
He could have at least had brown hair, too!

But yeah, Belle couldn't have stayed with Beast that way forever.
I just can't imagine making out with beast would be all that... good. Hahah
(SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT SORT OF THING, THOUGH)

[ajmeow.livejournal.com]

All I remember is that people kinda giggled when the prince showed up cause uh... he wasn't all that good looking at first glance. You get over it but I guess we were expecting something more classically good looking... not Fabio? ^^;

I'm the last person you should ask. Soooo not a romantic. I never really thought the phantom was anything but pretty psychotic... =D Although I did like Takarazuka's version a lot better.

Oh and here in case you haven't seen it:
http://paulcornell2.livejournal.com/36419.html

[sulcatas.livejournal.com]

Have you read The Bloody Chamber by Angela Carter, spec. The Tiger's Bride story? I kinda don't want to link to it cuz of spoilers, it's a classic and deals w/ the same Beauty and the Beast questions you are asking. In a 70s feminist (the good sort) proto-intertextual kind of way. Check it out!~

oh, and to answer one of your questions, I always laughed when that beam of light came out of beast/prince's toe.

[claidissa.livejournal.com]

1. Not really. A little. That guy looked kind of prissy.

2. Probably not. That'd be a little awkward in the bedroom.

3. Absolutely!

4. Probably not. Well, maybe. I'd have to love him a lot. As in, a lot more than Christine was (although that might just come with not being sorta-in-love with Raoul).

5. For the Phantom it's not really a "I CAN FIX HIM" sort of attraction, more of a "god damn he has a sexy brain" kind of thing. Although I can completely understand that sort of "my love can heal you" mentality.

6. I think it really depends on the character. With the Doctor it's not the tragic part that is attractive, it's just what comes along with it. It's baggage you have to accept if you want to be with him. With the Phantom it's a completely different story, because his tragedy is what consumed his life and he has nothing else, really, aside from Christine and his music. If you're deciding to be with the Phantom, you have to weigh the odds and ask yourself if you can really be with someone like that, whereas with the Doctor it's something that affects him, but not what drives him.

[yume-ninja.livejournal.com]

that art seriously made my day.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

but you love Der Tod, don't you? kinda a similar thing. (oops, I kissed you, you're dead!)

[dave-iii.livejournal.com]

Speaking thematically (as opposed to hormonally, *grin*):

1: No, because it means he's finally realized that he'd been behaving like a bad person (a "Beast", so to speak) and is now trying to behave like a human-- something he HAD been all along, appearances to the contrary. I don't want to be quoted as saying "Conformity=Teh Good" but there's some basic rules of what makes "Teh Good" and if you don't follow them, then you can't be too surprised when people treat you a particular way.

2&3: Good is as Good does, it's the heart that really matters. Dig up episodes of the "Beauty and the Beast" series from the 80's (Sweet Mother McCree, was there a lot of fan fiction for that one) and you'll find a guy who was permanently stuck with the Beast visage but the Prince's heart.

If he looked like that, no worries; If he ACTED like that, big worries.

4: If the Phantom really loved you, he wouldn't force isolation on you... but either way, isolation works far a lot of people, so there's no real telling one way or the other unless one tried.

5: Guh. (Insert sour face here.) The tortured hero is only appealing (to me) if they overcome their issues and triumph in spite of their personal problems. Otherwise they just come off as whiny losers who win because that's how the writers wrote it. Functionally, inner demons work exactly like outer trials and tribulations in this respect-- if they can't beat the Dragon, they can't rescue the Damsel. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if the Dragon is a literal dragon or if it's a school yard bully, a symptom of some mental disease (A Beautiful Mind), memories of a long dead abusive parent, or a naysayer telling the hero they can't do X (climb a mountain, build a rocket, eat a cherry pie, whatever). "Damsel" is a blanket term as well, referring to the goal the Hero is working towards; personal salvation, a dream, a people, etc.

Besides, for me the real hero of the piece is not the Beast, but the Beauty-- she's the one who goes through trials and tribulations-- the Beast only made the effort to change because of her. Without her, he'd have had no reason to. He's not the hero so much as he is both the Dragon AND the Damsel.

***
I dunno, would B and the B work if the genders were reversed? If the Beast was a woman with a horrible appearance and a demeanor to match, and Beauty (Let's call him "Handsome" to avoid raised eyebrows), if Handsome was a guy sucked into the situation without his control or consent? Would Princess Beast be as appealing as a romantic character this way? ....Come to think of it, does such a story exist?

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

I think definitely the "omg sexy brain" thing is a big part of it. I'm always going for the smart guys. But in fiction, for me, it's always the smart guy + some sort of angst. (which is not what I like IRL.)

with the Doctor, for you, does the tragedy make him more attractive? or do you just consider it a required price of admission? :>

So you're ok with facial deformation... what if the Beast wasnt the Disney Beast, but just some kind-of fur covered man-thing with big teeth and claws? still not ok?

[pogo101.livejournal.com]

2: All my furry gay friends say "yes. OH GOD, GOD, yes."

Duh.

[ajmeow.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's has to do with what version you associate with the character. Der Tod in Takarazuka is always more of a love sick/ really HAWT character and less emphasis on psychotic. It depends on who's playing "him" of course. Maybe if I'd seen the german der tod first, I'd have a different opinion.

I'd only seen the Weber version of Phantom until I saw the 'zuka version and he's just freaky and psycho.

[bluejeans07.livejournal.com]

1. Disney version, yes because I don't see the Beast in Prince Random. Yeah we see that there's a portrait of Prince Random in the Beast's quarters and the whole thing with his eyes, but I think the design could've used more elements of the Beast in the Prince. In stories, I don't really mind, but it's different when you read a story have the images in your mind compared to a movie.

2. It would make things awkward in the bedroom so no. o_O Then again, I did have that crush on Goliath from Gargoyals... *facepalm*

3. Well... if the Phantom wasn't homicidal, yeah. I don't know the Phantom character very well because he is so homicidal that it freaks me out. xD

4. In that era? I'd probably move us out to some village or a farm or something instead of staying the city. XD

5. The thing I love about the Doctor is that even though he is angsty, he still is able to delight in things. :D I'm madly attracted to sexy brains, smart guys are HOT, and I do admit that I do love the inner angst, I think it brings a kind of maturity in a person to see more into themselves and be able to affect the world around them. The main thing is that because of the pain they feel, they WANT to change the world instead of just live in it and for me that's really admirable. I personally don't think I have a healing personality but to love is to grow together, right? I'd be interested to see where being affected by such a person would take me.

6. I think I answered this in question 5, haha!

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the indepth discussion! :)

1 - I think in many ways the transformation works in it's allegorical form, ie, that he's been transformed by her love and now is the human (both in character and form) that he's meant to be. however, I think many young girls fall in love with the character, complete with the physical form and then, since they aren't thinking about the symbolism, they're like "hey, who's this new guy?, I liked my man-beast!"
My question is kindof, lets assume, no matter what, that the Beast's character improves and he becomes a better "person". Is it then nessesary for him to change his physical form ALSO.

2-3 - yup! I watched that series! A bit cheesy, but fun. Also Ron Pearlman = yay!

4. My thought is that in this fantasy world, the Phantom has improved his attitude somewhat, but he still wouldnt be a fully functional member of society. So lets assume that he doesn't "force" isolation on you, but there would be some isolation anyway, simply by being around him and he would be isolated at least to some degree.

5. I know what you mean. :) Please note that none of the stories I've listed have a "whiney" hero, they're all pretty powerful figures actually, if tortured. I agree with you a lot, but I think what I'm trying to say is perhaps a bit hard to explain. I don't tend to be attracted to the typical Prince Charming (someone who has no personality problems and always slays the dragon) I tend to be more attracted to types like the Count of Monte Cristo for example. And he's rather a bit of a bastard if you look at it! Has good reason to be, but yeah. In the end, he does triumph over his own personal dragon (his psyche is definitely his dragon, not those he wants revenge over) but it's the torture before that that makes him interesting, I think. buuuut... in most of these cases, part of it is their inherent nature. Like in A Beautiful Mind, he'll never fully conquer that. The Phantom can never truly be completely normal, mentally, even if he tries really hard.

There are many stories that have an "ugly" female with a handsome male, but most often it's more of the "I got a makeover and now I'm pretty".... or the "we're just friends because you're ugly, but then I find out how awesome you are and now we're in love".... so not really quiet the B and B formula, but sort of. I do think that the "ugly beast male" works better as a archetype (sp.) as I think most women find a strong, even somewhat brutish male more attractive than most men would find a brutish female.

it is true that Beauty really is the hero in B and B... she's the one who "saves" the Beast.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

go to your room!

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

yeah, I think that's interesting to consider, what a "real life" cranky bishonen is, and whether that is an acceptable thing. I love your description!
and you're right of course, that it's the positive characteristics that make the angst worth it in "real life".

but in fiction, the angst is attractive itself, also...? but in real life, it's not is it? or what do you think?

[unmei-no-yume.livejournal.com]

First off, I did NOT like the prince at all. I thought the Beast was much handsomer, and I really mean that. Although as stated above, it would make having kids rather difficult I would think.

I definitely think that for a lot of girls whether fictional or otherwise, there is sort of a 'savior complex.' Just as some guys have a Prince Charming complex - wanting to be his princess' knight in shining armor and saving her from this or that, I think some girls want to save the guy too. Only it often tends to involve less physical saving and more emotional or intellectual. Does that make sense?

Almost always it seems that fictional female characters are the ones who pull the brooding, angsty guys away from their angst. They help them move on with their life, make them know happiness again or for the first time, maybe find peace with themselves, realize the error of their ways, etc. I think maybe that's also a possible truth for why girls like "bad boys" sometimes. Sure there's the fun aspect of being bad but also I think inside the girls think they can change their bad boy. And I think that these fictional female characters are not unlike their real world counterparts. Girls want to save the ones they love or love the ones they want to save =P It doesn't hurt that most of the time, said brooding, angsty guys are bishounen, haha. I think it doesn't tend to happen in real life as much because realistically you can't really change anyone, not entirely, and saving them requires a whole lot of change. And I think that in fiction, sometimes the hardships of loving someone like that aren't realistically portrayed.

Enter the Mary Sues. I can't tell you how many Mary Sues I've read where the girls are saving the tortured hero. And I admit I've written them as well. People turn to fiction to escape and dream, after all.

Anyway sorry for the long rambly comment. This topic is very interesting and I'm glad you brought it up. The English minor in me want to write a paper on it lol.

[batchix.livejournal.com]

It was at first? Now it's frustrating. XD I guess I look at angsty/issue laden characters differently now that I'm married to one. I still get that feeling of "OMG~ You poor thing, my lurve can heal you!" but then I remember it can't. XD;; Batman probably fits in with that as well. Probably explains why i love batman so much! X3

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

lol

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

I think that raises a couple of interesting questions:

1. Do men want something different out of relationships than women (does the Princess Beast story work for them as well as the Male Beast does for women)?

2. Does the Princess Beast story speak to women somehow, in offering them a metaphor for something they go through in their life?

[melnay13.livejournal.com]

1) A bit, yes.
2) Erm... Well, by that point in the story, I'm already head over heels, but let's just say that there would serious wait time before anything would happen in the bedroom.
3)Those are big, honkin' story changing if's, but yes. If I were in love with him.
4)No. I'd need to be able to be with other people.
5)It's the motivation to nurture that makes it so romantic. Also, the wanting to feel needed.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

Yes, Batman is a perfect example!

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

You say interesting things!

Family life did tend to settle men (a little); nothing takes your mind off your own angst like having to take care of a wife and kids. Nowadays, though, with women being just as apt to run wild as men, maybe the notion of women needing to be "saved" emotionally by men will take off... do you think?

[ken-redtail.livejournal.com]

I'm usually disappointed with the Beast becoming the Prince because he always becomes so less three-dimensional. I hated how Disney portrayed him too as he turns from this visually interesting character to this halfass drawn character.

There seems to always be the girl who loves the bad guy. Look at the future Mrs. Drew Peterson.

I think there's a lot of girls who think its the ultimate romance to need to be needed. Of course, fiction always glosses over the deeper emotional and mental issues of a needy guy like that.

[singingraisin.livejournal.com]

I second a lot of this, particuarly the princess in shining emotional armor bit.

The stories with the Beast, the Phantom, even (argggggg) Edward Cullen are primarily about one very super special lady. I think some girls love the idea of being someone who could unconditionally love the monster (hence all the popularity of "bad-boys" and assholes in the world), particularly if they can believe they're special enough to get at the gooey emotional center.

There are girls who would put up with a whole lot of crap to believe they have some magical effect on someone.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

many men try to "save" wild women (often to disastrous effect!) Prince Charming syndrone!