Front Yard thoughts

[aimeekitty]

Turns out my front yard is more shaded than I thought! It's western facing. I'm in zone 9-10 (sunset western zone 18). The front yard in the areas close to the house, however, get shaded by the house for most of the day.

My original plan was to have a bunch of roses in the front yard, but they usually like at least 6 hours of sun, something they won't get in that position, So instead.... I'm going to have a camellia bush in the shadiest spot, and then I'm going to go with some roses that are a little bit more shade tolerant... and then have some other perennials that are ok in shade. If the roses get sad, then I'll move them to a sunnier spot later.

Also, apparently the HOA doesn't need to approve if I just put some bushes in, so that means I can buy some stuff THIS WEEK. (socal, you can really plant stuff now if you want unlike some other areas...)

For the camellia bush,... http://www.nucciosnurseries.com/ was recommended... I'll get one or two that they think would work well in my zone and spot.

THE ROUGH IDEA:


----- Other ideas for non-rose plants in this area (western facing, mostly shaded) are:
(ps. all of these are drought-tolerant)

Salvia leucantha 'Midnight' Midnight Mexican Bush Sage (4 ft)
Salvia spathacea ( Hummingbird Sage ) (4 ft)
Salvia greggii Autumn Sage (4 ft)
Some type of iris
Salvia leucantha - Mexican Bush Sage (4 ft)
fleabane daisy - Erigeron karvinskianus (ground cover)
Pratia pedunculata - Blue Star Creeper (stepables, ground cover)

For my roses for the front yard, I think I'm going to order from Roses Unlimited, mainly because they're the only one that has pretty much all the roses I want, are highly recommended and will ship this time of year. David Austin won't ship till Jan,... and two of the other recommended west-coast rose nurseries don't carry many of the varieties I want.

----- SHRUB ROSES


Felicia - Hybrid Musk
Hybrid Musk's are supposed to be more shade tolerant... and I think Felicia is really pretty.
semi-double flower, rapid rebloom. strong scent



Jude the Obscure - English Rose
very fragrant. can get to 8 feet
listed as being shade tolerant
http://www.rosegathering.com/jude.html


The Prince - English Rose
6 feet-ish
it's a deep purplish red which I thought would be a nice contrast to the lighter colors of the other roses. Also reported to have a really nice scent and prefers to be in a more shaded position. I figure I could pick a non-rose perennial to pick up the darker maroon color in another spot of the area.


Wildeve - English Rose
listed as being shade tolerant,
it's a short, almost ground-cover like rose, which is really appealing to me. It has a prettier flower than the knockout roses, though.

----- CLIMBER ROSES:::

I WANTED to try James Galway cl. for the climber,.. as DA recommends it for partial shade, but DA won't ship till JAN, and I'd like to plant a few things now. I couldn't find another site that listed James Galway for sale, either.

So then... I was considering getting

Madame Alfred Carriere - Noisette
glowing rec: http://www.roseinfo.com/carriere.html
taking over a westfacing garage: http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~dim/images/roses/MAC.jpg
closeup: http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~dim/images/roses/MACBloom1.jpg
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~dim/images/roses/MACBloom3.jpg
(these photos, btw, the gardener says she prunes MAC pretty hard, but that it's easy to prune)

... she's listed on several sites as being shade tolerant and really good for this zone. lots of sites list her as being easy for a new gardener and low maintenance. The one negative for MAC is that she apparently can get quite huge quite quickly,... so I wonder if she's too vigorous for me?


My other choice was

Eden cl,
one of my top favorites, but only mentioned on one site for being shade tolerant. The far right pillar gets an ok amount of sun, but the far left one, hardly gets any if at all... so I have visions of the rose doing ok on one side of the house. is that ok?? I don't know.

Was considering getting 1 Madam Alfred Carriere and getting 2 Edens, and allowing them to mix on the arches/pillars, with MAC in the shadiest spot.... mainly to see if one does better than the other... instead of getting 3 of the same kind??

--------------

this would be fun to go ahead and plant a few things in the front yard while I'm waiting on the landscaping and approvals for the back yard.

Comments

[singingraisin.livejournal.com]

so pretty!!

It'll be awesome to see how that all turns out.

[jezeroth.livejournal.com]

I like Mm. Alfred Car. It's truly monsterous at times, but I think if you are careful to train it, you can use make it fit just about anywhere. And from what I understand, it takes cutting well. :)

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

love your icon. :)

I wonder how hard it would be to keep it from getting monstrous? I mean, I like a big crazy rose, but not if it's attacking passers by.

... well... mostly not when it's attacking passers by. What do you think, should I go for MAC, or should I get one of the other two? (eden or James Galway (jm, I'd have to wait till jan))

If I don't put Eden in the front, I think I'll put it somewhere in the back, I love it's flowers.

[etherealtb.livejournal.com]

ROTFLMAO! Attacking passers by? I doubt it will be like the plant in Little Shop of Horrors! LOL! I think jezeroth is right, if you train it, you should be fine! You can always let it go on the roof! :)

[ajmeow.livejournal.com]

You mean like Judy's rose bush? =D
Before the HOA had a go at it. >.<

I'm almost jealous we don't have a yard to play with! (Almost...)

[kairi-g.livejournal.com]

baaawww I wish I had a pretty garden with roses!!!

[etherealtb.livejournal.com]

Lovely! As a fellow Californian, thank you for choosing your plants that don't need much water!

Regarding the roses, my dad had 80 rose bushes when I was growing up and I've had a few of my own since then, so I'll see what I can remember!

*LOVE* Wildeve, Jude the Obscure & Eden. Eden is lovely! I also love roses that have that cup shape.

Just to warn you about purple roses, like The Prince, if it is the deep purple you are in love with, make sure that you have the right kind of soil that they will turn that color. I mean, specific to your yard, not just climate zones. I'm saying that because my dad ordered one once which was supposed to be okay for our zone, but they came out a really dark purplish red, not purple.

Regarding Madame Alfred Carriere - you WANT a vigourous grower for a climber! Otherwise, they can take a year or two to fill out your trellaces (sp?). I had a lovely David Austen one that took two years to really get big and "bushy" like in your pictures. It was a gorgeous rose, but I was a bit bummed how slow it was the first couple of years. After that, it went crazy of course! LOL.

But since you love camelias, I would TOTALLY wait for the James Galway, if you can stand waiting until they'll ship them. That's what I really love about the old fashioned roses, is that they can look like camelias or other flowers, but are hardier and have a longer blooming season (especially in SoCal.)

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

my concern with "Madame Alfred Carriere" is that it might end up being a lot of work for me to keep it from getting too big? Or will that not be a concern? I'd be growing on 3 trellis up arches and meeting at the center of each arch. (like you can see in my gimpy drawing). Though MAC is mostly thornless, which is a big positive (though EDEN and James Galway are also mostly thornless, too...) Cause I've never trained roses before and I'd like to make it relatively easy for myself.

I'm also planning to have a bunch of other roses in the back yard (at least one or two climbers or large ones there, too...) so I don't want to give myself a huge amount of work when I'm starting out. haha. it SEEMS like a great idea to buy 20 roses... but... D: ....

with the Prince, I don't care if it's purple. I just want a dark rose, basically. I like purply reds and unusual red colors. The only thing that would dissappoint is if it was RED RED.
For the back yard I want to get William Shakespeare 2000 - LOVE the color and shape on it!

re: xeric, our development is actually pretty strict about how much grass you can have etc, which is ok with me, actually. I'd rather have plants. and there are a lot of low maintanance and drought tolerant plants that are really beautiful. I've been doing a lot of reading lately about native and xeric plants, I'd prefer to use them as much as possible (within reason...)
I do want to have some roses and things that are sentimental to me though, even if they aren't on the drought tolerant list.

I suppose I could get one or two other climbers and then get a James Galway later? I dunno. there's little way for me to known how well any of my three top climbers would do in that shady spot. I guess that's the main issue. I really love Eden's look, but J. Galway is gorgeous too and has a stronger smell (which is nice.)
and then MAC is lovely (I like Eden and JG's look better than MAC) but it's still gorgeous, and it's hearty nature might suit the spot better... who knows. I have little to go on!

[etherealtb.livejournal.com]

"my concern with "Madame Alfred Carriere" is that it might end up being a lot of work for me to keep it from getting too big?"

Hmmmm....good question. I haven't seen this particular bush, but there is one I had called Joseph's Coat that grew like a weed. It wasn't that hard the first year (mostly involved directing the stems in the direction you want them to go) but there was a lot of pruning involved latter years. Although we liked the bushy looks, so really didn't prune much, just directed strays back towards the others and let it grow on the roof a bit! :) The nice thing about a weed like rose in a new house in a new complex like yours is it would grow fast and give you some quick color. I'm also wondering if a quick grower would do better in the shade, but you'd have to ask the grower about that, as I don't have much experience with growing roses in the kind of shady area you describe.

"I suppose I could get one or two other climbers and then get a James Galway later?"

Oh, totally! It sounds like you'll have lots of space to work with, so you can fill in spots as you go along. But I won't lie, 20 bushes could be a lot. You might want to start small, maybe 10 or so, and add as you feel more experienced. Although you don't have to prune back climbers as much as regular bushes, but then, my dad didn't believe in pruning them as far back in the winter as most people out here do. He would mostly "shape" them - cutting off the straglers and keep the stems that were going the direction he wanted.


"really love Eden's look"

Me too! It's lovely! Like I said, I like two tone roses a lot, mostly because each one's color is slightly different and makes you feel like you get several different roses for the price of one bush! Eden also looks like it is one color when a bud (whitish) and then white with a pink center when open, which again, makes me feel like a get two for one! :) It's fun to watch a rose like that bloom in its various stages. Although if you prefer the uniformed rose look, this one might not be for you!

Have you seen these roses in person? It sounds like you have. It's really hard to tell sometimes until you see them in person. Usually the grower can tell you which nurseries carry the roses you are interested in. One nice thing about buying them from nurseries is you don't have to start from the "bare root", but roses that have already started a bit.

Oh, and roses need a lot less water than you think! As my dad would say, "Roses don't like to get their feet too wet!" Which was his way to gently scold me for over-watering his roses when I was little. LOL.

Okay, now I'm getting totally nostalgic for having roses again! I've missed them, being an apartment dweller. It was really hard to leave my Austin bush behind! :( I really need to get an apartment that at least has a balcony so I can grow a small bush! :)

[mmymoon.livejournal.com]

My DAs are kind of scrawny and disappointing right now... it's good to hear they should go nuts after a while. :D

(I figured, you know, I mean, I don't expect magic rose bush overnight -- but they're so... gangly right now. It's nice to hear someone else felt the same way!)

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

what growth habit are they though?

[mmymoon.livejournal.com]

Shrubs! XD

They're so scrawny. Now, to be fair, they look a lot better than the pitiful little bareroot nubbins I planted, but... still. I've been put off planting The Grand Hedge until I watch them a while longer.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

well, you know,... some of those shrubs are ganglier than others (naturally)

[mmymoon.livejournal.com]

Yep, yep -- I got the hedging kit, though, so it's just been kind of sad looking. (Queen of Sweden and Winchester Cathedral. Both are absolutely gorgeous flowers!)

[mmymoon.livejournal.com]

(I've only had them a year, though -- it isn't their fault, really. I'm sure they'll plump up next year or the one after and be gorgeous bushes. Just... pretty pitiful at first. Makes one unreasonably downhearted. XD)

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

a lot of stuff I've been reading says most of them dont even bloom the first year or two, soooo I guess just try and enjoy the blooms? :)

... and then next year take an axe to them if they don't please you. <3

[etherealtb.livejournal.com]

Hang in there, mmymoon! The JA's do take awhile! That's something they don't exactly tell you, that "old fashioned" roses take a good old fashioned long time to grow! :) One thing though, I wouldn't prune them back this winter, it doesn't sound like they need it, just trim the straglers and let them grow!

[gothiclibrarian.livejournal.com]

I don't know if they'd thrive in your clime, but Alba roses are fantastic for shade tolerance. I have a huge collection of them and absolutely adore them as a class.

They only bloom 1x per year though, you seem to mainly be looking at David Austens, so I assume you want the old fashioned bloom "form" with a continual bloom habit.

Your plan is lovely, I should have been more careful with that sort of thing, my garden's getting a bit overgrown.

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

I like Albas a lot! I don't know anything about how well they'd grow as all I know right now is what I've been reading... We're basically a dry hot climate. I get a little bit cold in the winter though.

I like old fashioned bloom form... but I like lots of different kinds. I like the single hybrid musks, too.
I'd prefer more than 1 bloom a year at this point,... just because, "why not" when there are so many repeat bloomers to choose from that I like the bloom shape on.

I'm sure I'm going to end up getting a couple that are 1 bloomers though.

[mmymoon.livejournal.com]

Again... I'd try to go smell some Austin roses before you commit. Both of the ones I have growing... they're not... awful... well, honestly, yes, they are -- I just don't like that particular fragrance. D:

I'm moving them away from the house, ha ha...

I'd try calling the David Austin people directly with your area info, they were REALLY helpful suggesting roses for me. (I was considering Jude the Obscure myself, but they said it went all wonky in my humid climate.

I've been REALLY impressed with High Society -- of everything, it's bloomed like the dickens this year. (Although the Austin roses have done a fair share of blooming.) But the fragrance is the perfect "tea rose" to me.

I know that's not helpful/shipping right this second, but... honestly, I got that one in a pot at the garden center, and it's done wonders -- so I might check around. (Depending on your climate/gardening abilities, I've had a LOT of luck with clearance roses... around there they mark them down at the end of the "season," but that's actually when they should be planted anyway! My gain!)

[aimeekitty.livejournal.com]

If I can, I'm going to try to go to Huntington this weekend, they supposedly have some DAs. :)

[mmymoon.livejournal.com]

Yee!

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, because they are LOVELY little roses. I just was all entranced by the pictures on the website and basically was totally weirded out when the bloomed and I finally smelt them. VERY spicy! It's not bad really, just weird! Not what I was expecting at all.

I know now that fragrance is a big thing for me, particularly close to the house... I need to get a Climbing Pinkie and check her out!

[etherealtb.livejournal.com]

Oh, good! That's the perfect place! You can try Descansco Gardens too. They have TONS of more traditional roses.

mmymoon, I see that High Society is a J&P rose. aimee, you may want to consider getting some J&P roses. I know they carry more ordinary less cool roses, but their roses are pretty much full proof (*cough* Not always though - Mr. Lincoln, I'm talkin' about YOU!) I would think their roses would be good for "beginners"!

BTW, here's Joseph's Coat. Not really elegant, like the one's you've picked, but it's a great "work horse". They actually make great "side of the house" roses.

http://hiddeninfrance.typepad.com/hidden_in_france/images/2008/05/12/145077988014310.jpeg

[bittenbefore.livejournal.com]

the prince english rose is amazingly beautiful!!

[chartreusekitty.livejournal.com]

Have you considered Hydrangeas? I don't know how drought tolerant they are, but very pretty. Your garden is going to be so lovely.

[uniformgrey.livejournal.com]

What a gorgeous layout! Your selection of roses is really beautiful and should make for quite the eye-catching sight.